Issue # 17 Interview with Byron Katie

by Prem Anjali and Integral Yoga Magazine

The Work—A Self-Inquiry Process
An Interview with Byron Katie
Byron Katie (known as Katie) became severely depressed in her early thirties. For almost a decade she spiraled down into depression, rage, self-loathing, and constant thoughts of suicide. Then, one morning in February 1986, she experienced a life-changing realization which Katie calls, “waking up to reality.” The Work, which she has written about and shares with thousands globally, didn’t develop from this experience; she says that it woke up with her, as her, that morning in 1986. The first people who did The Work reported that it had transformed their lives, and she soon began receiving invitations to teach the process publicly.

Integral Yoga Magazine: What happened when you had the experience of “waking up to reality?”

Byron Katie: In that instant of no-time, I discovered that, when I believed my thoughts, I suffered but, that when I didn’t believe them, I didn’t suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. I found that suffering is optional. I found a joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment. That joy is in everyone, always. I realized that what had been causing my depression was not the world around me, but the beliefs I’d had about the world. Instead of hopelessly trying to change the world to match my thoughts about how it should be, I could question these thoughts and, by meeting reality as it is, experience unimaginable freedom and joy. As a result, I was instantly filled with love for everything life brings.

IYM: When you talk about this, it sounds as if you are describing an enlightenment experience.

BK: People think that they need to get “enlightened” in order to be free. Yes, it’s in the sacred texts, and yes, this guru or that lama says he has attained it, but we are still left to understand a concept, just a concept; it’s the story of a past. The truth is that there’s no such thing as enlightenment. No one is permanently enlightened; that would be the story of a future. There’s only enlightenment in the moment. Do you believe a stressful thought? Then you’re confused. Do you realize that the thought isn’t true? Then you’re enlightened to it. It’s as simple as that. And then the next thought comes, and maybe you’re enlightened to it as well and maybe not.

IYM: Do you have many Yoga teachers and students doing The Work?

BK: Yes! I love it that so many Yoga students find The Work vital to their spiritual practice. I have often heard that after doing The Work for a while, people found that the question, “Who am I?” was answered in the silence. For most people, atman and Brahman and all the other beautiful ideas of the Hindu tradition are just concepts; they’re not experienced as living reality. The Work allows you to get beyond all concepts, to discover who you are not, and that leaves you with what you truly are. Even the deepest spiritual truth can be an obstacle to your freedom. Many people, for example, believe that there is nothing [or nothingness]. This is an article of faith for them. But the truth is that everything comes from the “I.” If there’s no thought, there’s no world. Without the “I” to project itself, there is neither origin nor end. And the “I” just appears: it doesn’t come out o f anything and it doesn’t return to anything. Actually, even “nothing” is born out of the “I,” because even it is a concept. By believing that there is nothing, you are creating “something.”

IYM: Then, what is the “I”?
           
BK: The “I” is the origin of the whole universe. All thought is born out of that first thought, and the “I” cannot exist without these thoughts. Every story of enlightenment is gone. It’s just one more story about the past. If it happened five seconds ago, it might as well have been a million years. Each thought believed is what allows the “I” to exist as a you, a separate identity. When you see this, you see that there’s no “you” to be enlightened. You stop believing in yourself as an identity, and you become equal to everything that appears to be and or not to be.
 
IYM: You mentioned that, for some yogis who do The Work, the “Who am I?” question was answered in the silence. Do you recommend the practice of silence?

BK: When your heart is cheerful and at peace, it doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do, whether you live or die. You can appear to talk or stay silent, and it’s all the same. Some people think that silence is more spiritual than speech, that meditation or prayer brings you closer to God than watching television or taking out the garbage. That’s the story of separation. Silence is a beautiful thing, but it’s no more beautiful than the sound of people talking. I love it when thoughts appear to pass through my mind, and I love it when it appears that there are no thoughts. Thoughts can’t ever be a problem in my reality, because I have questioned them and seen that no thought is true, so nothing I seem to see can be true.

If you learn to meditate, the mind becomes quiet, you can become very calm, and then it can happen that, when you’re back in your ordinary life and you get a parking ticket, boom!, you’re upset. It’s easy to be spiritual when things are going your way. When thoughts are simply observed and not investigated, they retain the power to cause stress. You either believe your thoughts or you don’t; there’s no other choice. They’re like someone whispering to you; you aren’t really listening, so you don’t react. But if you hear that person loud and clear, you can’t disregard what that person is saying and you may react to it. With inquiry, we don’t just notice our thoughts, we see that they don’t match reality, we realize exactly what their effects are, we get a glimpse of what we would be if we didn’t believe them, and we experience their opposites as being at least equally valid. An ope n, balanced mind is the beginning of freedom.

IYM: Why does it seem so hard to stay in balance, to let go of stressful thoughts?

BK: You can’t let go of a stressful thought, because you didn’t create it in the first place. A thought just appears. You’re not doing it. You can’t let go of what you have no control over. Once you’ve questioned the thought, you don’t let go of it, it lets go of you. It no longer means what you thought it meant. The world changes, because the mind that projected it has changed. Your whole life changes, and you don’t even care, because you realize that you already have—you already are—everything you need.

IYM: Does this awareness just arise?

BK: This goes beyond simple awareness. You meet your thoughts with understanding, which means that you can love them unconditionally. And until you deeply see that not even thoughts exist, you may spend your whole life controlled by them or struggling against them. Just noticing your thoughts works while you’re meditating, but it may not work so well when you get the parking ticket or when your partner leaves you. Do you just notice your feelings without a residue? I don’t think so. We’re not there until we are. When we go inside and truly meet those thoughts with understanding, the thoughts change. They’re seen through. And then, if they ever appear to arise again, we just experience them with clarity—a clarity that includes everyone, everything.

(With this, Katie signed off with this beautiful closing: “ I am loving what is, and right now that would be you.”)

For more information on The Work, Please visit: www.thework.com

For more information on Integral Yoga Magazine, Please Visit: www.iymagazine.org

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Much Love,

Hugo Elfinstone

For more information on my work. Please visit: www.accesswisdom.com

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